SPEAKER_04 0:00

Don't talk to boys, don't talk to boys, don't talk to boys. Get married. Now how do I talk to this boy? The men cannot look at me in the eye.

Sana 0:05

Because he never talked to a girl in his life. Oh my god, I'm gonna go to hell because of this. Come on. The more relationships you have before marriage, the more unhappy you'll be in your marriage. It's seductive. It is so convincing. How do you say no to that? A great date does not equal a great mate.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

He left me unread for this long.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

He's delivered this long. What's your favorite colour? Oh, yours is green, violent, and blue. Let's spend time together.

Sana 0:27

Cut out all this waffly waffly things and get to the point. Are they the one? Yes or no? Simple as.

Sharif Faizullah 0:33

Rank up that marriage that MBA. Divorce proof your future marriage today. Can I do?

Sana 0:41

Assalamu alaikum everyone. I'm Sana. Assalamuakum everyone. I'm Amal.

SPEAKER_04 0:44

Going is Ara, and today we're going to be talking about chapter 8 in the book.

Sana 0:48

I think this is really interesting topic because I think everyone kind of struggles with this concept because it's a bit of like a grey zone. We know Islamically we can't date, but then we also know that we want to get married. So how do I get from A to B without doing anything a bit sketchy?

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Yeah. 100%. I think here the biggest pitfall is the lack of preparation/slash information that there is in that pipeline, at least for younger Muslim girls, because it's like, don't talk to boys, don't talk to boys, don't talk to boys. Get married. Well, now how do I talk to this boy? Or how do I talk to the boy that you picked? Or how do I pick the boy that I want to talk to? And so there's just like no information, period. But the big question for this chapter is, can you date? So obviously the answer is no, but I don't want everyone to be like, oh, you guys are just preaching. No, it's because we're protecting you from the baggage that you're inevitably gonna carry if you do start dating.

Sana 1:42

Yeah, and that's definitely mentioned in this chapter that if you are like a serial dater or whatever you want to call it, you are gonna end up with a lot of baggage, whether you want it or not. Even if you say, No, I'm not gonna be like that, I can deal with all this stuff, I'm not gonna take it into the next relationship. Inevitably, those experiences is what molds your perspective of other experiences and your experience of life. So obviously, it is gonna carry into the next relationship, whether that is dating someone else or a marriage.

SPEAKER_04 2:11

I have a personal anecdote that I'd want to share. So the university I go to when I participate in the MSA, it's very much, you know, separated. Obviously, like the men are in one section and the women are in another. And to me, for someone that kind of grew up being able to talk to both genders, even though obviously my sites weren't about marriage or anything like that, it was a very different situation to delve into, knowing that because in my mind, I'm like back home, this is normal for me. But it's kind of how I realized the importance of why you need to separate yourself from the opposite gender and not in a preachy way, but more in a way that respects the dean.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Uh, I think definitely growing up, same thing. Like my parents weren't the type of parents who were like, don't talk to boys, don't talk to boys. All my classrooms were mixed classrooms. I had neighbors that we played with that were boys, so it was never really an issue. But growing up, I noticed my friends whose parents were really strict about that stuff, they were more rebellious and they wanted to explore those things more. And those friends, if you ask them now, they regret those things. I'll tell you that right now. That if you talk to them, they're gonna be, I wish I hadn't talked to him, or I wish that me and him hadn't talked for that long. Because it's really just like opening your heart, it's wearing your heart on your sleeve. It's like a double-edged sword, there's a negative side to that. Getting to know someone and it's not going anywhere because then you just know all this information that person knows all about you, you've gone through something together, and that's a bond that you then have to go through the process of breaking the emotional turmoil, all of those things.

Sana 3:28

It's just hurtful. Like, why do you want to deal with all that? I think the difference in the mindset of someone who's just interested in dating versus someone who's wants that long-term commitment, that long-term relationship is so different. You'd want to go for someone who has the long-term plan, the long-term commitment to a relationship rather than someone who is comfortable with dating. Because I think dating more signifies I'm not ready yet. This is in my opinion, you guys can disagree if you like, but especially if they are not against the idea of marriage, it just kind of signals that they're not ready to commit yet. So, what do you then need to commit? Because if you're going to give your entire self to this person, a lot of people not talking about just the Muslim sphere, but in the world when they're dating, they move in together, have kids together. It's like, at what point if you've done everything a married couple typically does, what now do you need to be convinced to get married?

SPEAKER_02 4:20

I think that's a really interesting point to bring up too. That when you open the door for dating, it kind of throws a wrench in the idea of commitment because then it's like, okay, we're committed, but how committed? What's the difference between being married and dating? There's like all these boundaries that you now have to draw that are just kind of stupid. One thing I do want to mention, if you had asked me this question a few years back, I probably would have been like, Yeah, you can date. You have to. Like, how else would you get to know someone now, like typical Western dating? Like, I wouldn't say go like sleep with this person, go out everywhere, et cetera, et cetera. But like halal dating or whatever it is. But after reading this book, like genuinely, genuinely after reading this book, I've changed my tune completely. Like, I don't think so. Just because you're absolutely right, like within a few conversations and being more intentional about who you're choosing to talk to and what you're talking about makes all the difference, and you don't need the extreme back and forth and all the things that dating brings to the table. And I love that. I love that it's practical. I don't think that you need to date. I think people, when they're saying yeah, you can date, are saying that from a place of oh, I need to date to find someone, but that's what this book is telling. You don't need to date, so you don't have to.

Sana 5:32

You don't need to date to find someone, because I think if you are asking the right questions and frame them in the right way, you can figure out whether this person is right or wrong for you. And the example that I'd give for that is that when you meet a new person, you can tell within either the first conversation whether they're on the same vibe with you. It takes maybe a few more conversations, and then you can tell, okay, are we gonna be really good friends, or are we just gonna be like friends who talk every so often, or are we just acquaintances, are we just colleagues? So I think that same kind of intuition you use in friendships, you can also apply them to relationships that you don't need to go through this long-winded process of doing everything under the sun with someone to figure out whether they're the right one. You just need to be smart, and I think if you follow the steps in this book and follow the questions that are asked and ask them appropriately in the right way, you'll be able to cut out all this waffly waffly things and get to the point of are they the one? Yes or no, like simple as.

SPEAKER_04 6:34

I also like how it's mentioned in the book that the more relationships you had in the past, the less likely that the one you have currently is gonna last. People simply think they wanted to date, just maybe to fit into social norms. The reality is when you get married, the more relationships you had in the past, the less likely that that marriage is gonna hold up. Maybe it won't be like the safe space that a marriage is thought to be. So that's just what I'm seeing from my side is especially if you're a serial monogamous dater, you just have so much emotional baggage going from one relationship to another without actually taking the time to work on yourself to kind of make yourself be the best person you want to be in that relationship with the next person. Coming from someone that has seen dating throughout high school, I feel like those relationships by my friends, I mean I feel like those relationships are more obviously like what's the percentage of high school sweethearts getting married. It's not that high.

Sana 7:22

Yeah, I think bouncing off what you just said, Zara, is that like the more relationships you have, the less value you have for a relationship. It's more that you're getting into those kind of relationships just to have one, not because you've actually kind of got a connection with the person and you're seeing a future. It's more as cross as this might sound like to fill a void that you're just bouncing and bouncing because you can't stand to be by yourself.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

What I've noticed is when you allow for dating, it's a lot less serious and it leaves a lot of room for like immaturity because if you say, Oh, we're dating, that's nowhere near as serious as marriage. Yeah, oh we're dating to marry. Okay, but you're giving yourself that timeline for them to draw it out, have it be this very long-winded process. If you come to the table and you're like, no dating period, like I'm here to marry, you're gonna cut out all of the guys that are wanting to waste your time. Only those people that are serious about you are gonna be the ones talking to it. Dating is just like junior commitment. So people don't take it as serious. There's a lot more room for error, there's a lot more room for oh yeah, we'll eventually get married, and you're just wasting your own time. I think marriage magnet being really intentional about okay, I like this person, great. I'm gonna tell them exactly what I'm looking for. Not in a boyfriend, not in a friend, in a husband. Okay, if he's up to the task, you're gonna know. And if he's not, you're also gonna know. People start dating really young. Media normalizes dating a lot, like Western TV shows, movies, everyone like they're so young, and they're like, oh, they've had a crush on each other forever and they're dating. Every book you see, oh, they break up and they get back together, and it's this whole thing. So, this big bold text at the end of the chapter that the more relations you have before marriage, you're gonna be unhappy. One of the red socks we talked about physical and emotional intimacy before marriage, like it's just more and more baggage that you're putting on your heart that you have to then unpack. And it's a lot easier if both of you are just really serious from the beginning. Like, when you start seeing that, oh, I want companionship, seek out a serious companionship, make sure that you're ready. Find someone who's also ready at the same time as you, and then do those things with your spouse. Like, people like, oh, I want to go on this cute date. Do that with your husband. Because I know a lot of my friends too, they have tainted memories now. They're like, Oh, I can never listen to that song, I could never go there because I went there with so-and-so, or he really liked that song. It's like avoid all that.

Sana 9:42

Yeah, the stakes are higher in a marriage compared to dating. Like, if you want to break off a relationship when you're dating someone, what do you just say, I want to break up, and that's it. It's so easy to get in and out of that. Whereas marriage, it's like, okay, I don't like you anymore. What are the processes I have to go through now to end this? Is it worth it? Is this something that we can fix? You have to put in so much more work and effort to end the relationship. Whereas like dating, you can just have a bad day and be like, that's it, we're done. In a marriage, you can't do that, you're in it for the long run, literally.

Sharif Faizullah 10:14

And that's the thing with dating. People think that oh, I'm making a commitment. This guy's making a commitment to me. But if he has not made a lifelong commitment to you yet, all of that is fleeting. It's just to pass the time. And I know a lot of guys, I've talked to them, including Muslims, they try to appear with this nice guy facade, but at the end of the day, to be crass, he just wants to get in her pants. That's his only goal. And he will try every method he can to persuade her. No, no, no, I'm a good guy. We're doing this because I love you. He will play all of that game, but at the end of the day, you ask him, Hey, are you willing to talk to my family? You know, what's your plan for marriage? Oh, I'm not ready, and then he will have 10 excuses. It's easy to say about someone going through that emotion at that time, a guy is actually trying to convince her and woo her, and like, oh my god, it's seductive. It is so convincing. Like, how do you say no to that? Because that's what you crave, that's what we want. And that's the trap. To me, the biggest challenge is that when a dating when it ends, now you might look at every second person that you date, the third person you date, through the lens of the first guy you dated. So that first guy becomes your filter, and you will start comparing every other person that you date with the first guy. Instead, what we are recommending, just start with a blank slate, start with your deal makers and deal breakers, and that becomes your template, something that you genuinely truly want for the rest of your life. Well, use that as a filter to filter every single guy who you come across or you're thinking of seriously for a marriage. That's the shift. And you guys said, hey, dating, you can't. I think it's helpful to phrase it in a way that you can date, you are able to date. Whether you want to or not, that's a choice you have to make. What do you guys think of that? Dating being a choice.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

So I just looked it up. Dating means the stage in a romantic relationship where two people regularly spend time together, often with the goal of assessing if they're suitable partners for a future intimate relationship. So instead of saying that, oh, you can and can't date, I know people in the club, everyone's gonna be like, oh, you're saying this or you're saying that, but isn't that what you're telling us to do? Okay, so if you want to look at this as dating, go for it. That's essentially what we're telling you to do. Yes, go find someone you want to talk to, get to know them, and assess if you're suitable partners for this intimate relationship that is marriage. But we're telling you to cut out all of the middle stuff of like, oh, we're going on multiple dates just for fun, wasting time, like that kind of thing. Instead, make your first few dates really intentional. Ask, put your marriage magnet forward. You'll find out ASAP if they are suitable for building a life together. I think Sharif, you mentioned them being the co-founder of your relationship or your family. This was like the analogy or whatever it is. But yeah, if this person is a suitable lifelong partner. So if you want to go ahead and call this dating, then yes, you can date. We're staying intentional, we're cutting out all the middle bits that are pointless or not worth your time.

Sana 13:04

I think on top of that, the thing that distinguishes what we're suggesting and the Islamic way of it compared to the Western way is also that you obviously cut out all the waffly waffly bits, but also that you're not doing that by yourself. It's not just you and him going off to the coffee shop, it's you, him, and someone else who sat at a distance. It's never that you're left alone to the two of you's own devices, it's that there's always someone there as like a chaperone.

SPEAKER_04 13:30

I would agree with both of you guys. For example, obviously, my mom and dad, they did not date, they were introduced. The population in my school, the demographic was mainly white. So my peers and my kids in my class, they would, when we're younger in elementary school, they would be like, How long did your parents date before they got married? Being true to myself, I would always be like, they didn't ever date. And then I always got the follow-up question, which was, so how did they get married if they didn't date? And in my head, I was like, What do you mean? Because I'd never thought of dating as anything more than not haram, but like something that we never we didn't do. And I was like, You see my parents together, so they obviously got married without dating. I'm telling you the truth. So navigating that the Western norm about dating and needing to spend time with each other before finding that you're the right fit for each other. That's kind of what is being brought up here. At university, I took an American Muslim class, and one of the units we talked about was specific cultural practices in America pertaining to Islam. My teacher showed me a video about a man and a woman. They went to a coffee shop. I'm assuming they had a chaperone somewhere there. And you could tell that the guy was being extremely intentional because within five minutes of her sitting down, he was like, This is what I believe should be done in the house. I think you should be the click in the clean and wash the kids while I go work. And then you can tell that the woman was a little like it was a little abrupt for her. What I took from that is that the guy was being a little bit forward. But when I got the opinions of other Muslims in my class, I kind of realized that that's something that they would be looking for because they want the attention behind it. They don't want to waste their time pretending like being upfront with what he wants. And I think that is important to understand. Though it might seem abrupt at first, it's kind of something that you have to do, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

I like that you talked about being forward. Because I would have thought the same thing. If someone had come up to me and been like, here's my marriage magnet, this is what I want, this is what I expect from you as a wife, I would have been like, Hello, who are you? We just met. Are you okay? That's what we don't normalize. It's so silly for us to normalize instead of dating for years and years. These people are like having kids together, sleeping together, whatever they're doing, like they're talking about whatever, whatever, whatever, being together for so long, they don't want to get married, and none of that's forward, being unmarried and doing all these things. But if they were to tell us what they actually expect of a wife while we're a girlfriend, then it's like, oh, what the heck? So I think it's okay to be forward. I think that's what we need now. So I guess just flipping the script of what it means to be dating, it's like I guess a different way of dating, if that's what you want to call it. It's instead of going out to a coffee shop, you and him, and you're like, what's your favorite color? Oh, yours is green, mine is blue. Let's spend time together. No, instead, we're gonna be like, okay, what is your plan for your future? This is my plan. Do they align together? Your cousins here with us, that's really great. So we're not gonna have any of this crossing boundaries. It's very structured, it's very nice, and you're still getting to know each other. I think people assume that when you say no, you can't date, that you're supposed to go like this and marry a stranger. That's not what we're telling you either. You can look with your eyes completely open right away. That's the goal here.

Sharif Faizullah 16:22

What you just said about eyes closed and I think a lot of people have that misconception. It's like, oh, no dating? Okay, then you just get married with your eyes closed. That's why when people say dating, they use the word halal and haram, like that's really not the right way to frame it. Frame it in the sense of, I want to get to know him. Now, how do I get to know him in the fastest way possible, in the safest way possible. By safe, I'm talking about safeguarding your heart. What's the fastest way? Marriage magnet. I do recommend marriage magnet being sent to the guy through somebody else, by the way. And if the guy were to send it to you, I also recommend it being sent by someone else. Go to the example of Khadija radiallahu and she had her eye on this employee of hers. His name was Muhammad. He's literally a 25-year-old young man. She didn't go up to him and say, Hey, do you want to get married? So she tested first. And he proved to be trustworthy. She made more money that year doing business. Wow. And the person that she sent, she had that glowing review about him. He was so trustworthy. He was like, Wow. And she sent someone else with the marriage proposal. So that's the thing. You don't have to go up to a guy and say, Hey, I like you. I've been following you around, stalking you for a little bit. I really like you. I think I'm in love with you. You want to get married? It's not that. That's not what you do. So it's not from zero to a hundred. So you send it through somebody else. Inshallah, we've talked about marriage magnet in chapter one, deep dive. We'll dedicate an entire season for that. For now, just know that. You don't have to go up to someone directly. However, there is a way to do that. We're gonna talk about it. If you find someone who just knocks your socks off, really wows you, and it's in a conference and somewhere, you're like, hey, if I don't get this guy's information or something, like it's gonna, he's gonna be gone forever. But somehow you have this inkling, my man, we could be a good fit for each other. There is a way to get that across through somebody else. I'll show you. And this is why you always want to carry a pen and a notepad with you. I'll tell you why later. And there is a specific thing you need to say. So it's not about the guy says, I want you to cook and clean and do that, and while I go make money. Maybe that is the right sentiment, but I think that is absolutely the wrong way to introduce it in the first couple of minutes. That is just not how you talk about that topic. So you want to ask open-ended questions, who's good doing what in the marriage? So you you bring it out of the other person. I think the video that your professor showed, I think that showed quite an extreme side of it, and I didn't agree with the approach. I agree with the idea, it's sentiment, but the approach, it would put anybody off. I don't want someone like that marrying my daughter. No, you said be a little bit more sensitive, a little bit more kind and sincere in your approach. You're gonna be living with that person. If that person is like that all the time, oh my god, that's not gonna be a pleasant experience. I want to follow up on something else, which is dating versus courtship. I know it's a Mr. Darcy, you look at all Shakespearean, all that old stuff, romance, oh, and then you court, and then you're like, oh wow. But then when you're thinking about courting now in 2025, 2030, you're like, oh, that's such a foreign concept. But think about it. When you're reading that in a romance novel, why are you being so wow? And then when it comes to your own life, you're like, no, no, that is so outdated. It that makes no sense to me. If the goal is to get to know him, again, how do you get to know him the fastest way and the safest way? And I think it is okay for guys and girls to talk to each other in a respectful way. Uh, inshallah, we'll talk about that in the future. There is a framework that you follow to do that. Because I've seen a lot of guys, they grow up not talking to not interacting with girls as much, and then they're in college, they are so awkward. Just talking to them is like, oh my god. Yeah, okay, if he's not looking at them, that's fine. Maybe he's practicing, he's lowering his gaze. I find that commendable, nice. But you you gotta be able to say a full sentence in front of her without mumbling and bumbling. You can even form a sentence because he's so awkward and shy because he never talked to a girl in his life, or maybe it was from a distance or with a group of other people. I I think that counts against him. I know a lot of religious parents, this is how they raise their children, and then they throw them into the world, they're like, okay, now you start. They're like, I don't even know what to do. And the same thing happens with girls, very practicing mashallah, regardless of whether she, you know, hijabi or niqabi, it doesn't really matter. If she grows up not talking to guys, not interacting with them in that kind of respectful manner, she's lost. If a guy just goes around and says, Salam a salam alaikum, she's like, oh, don't look at him, don't look at him, just run away. She has no idea how to interact. I think that's the drawback. I want to show you guys there is an extreme example of, hey, you want to go out on a date and then like, you know, hey, you want to go up to my room? Like, that is the extreme example, the Western side. And on the other hand, you're like what Amal said about, oh, don't talk to boys at all. Like, that's it. Like, just don't even look at him. I I think we need to go somewhere in between where it's practical and it's safe and it's sensible. Because I think a lot of not just parents, I'm talking about a lot of youngsters have this idea of they're either on one of the two extremes, and that's when the confusion happens. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_04 20:52

Yeah, I resonate with that a lot, especially because I was telling you guys about the MSA and the separation, and because maybe the men are lowering their gaze and then the women don't want to interact with the men. But the amount of times I've called my parents or something after one of those events, and I'm like, bro, the men cannot look me in the eye. I feel almost kind of bad about myself because I'm like, I'm sorry that you can't even form a sentence and talk to me. And then at the same time, if I ever mentioned to the sisters, I'm like, oh, you know, back home, we're very intermingled. The brothers and the sisters, we talk all the time. Then they look at me like I'm crazy, and then I feel kind of like not ostracized, but it's kind of a weird situation because I I grew up with brothers, I can talk to men when I want without it being anything weird. So that is something that I can attest to and kind of relate to based on what you were talking about.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Ostracizing people for talking to the opposite gender, I feel like is super, super, super counterproductive because you're not normalizing interactions at all, and then you're making people feel bad for the interactions, they're gonna have like this weird resentment towards these interactions, they're gonna feel even more awkward, be weirder about it. I think just being aware and practicing the proper framework is good within the confines of that proper framework and the right purpose, it's okay to talk to the opposite gender, and you. Should be aware that people are gonna talk to you and that boys are gonna like you, or you're gonna like a boy. All of these things are gonna happen, and that's normal. And instead of being like, Oh my god, I'm gonna go to hell because of this. Come on, that's not what's gonna happen. Let's be normal about this, please.

Sana 22:13

Do you think that what we're kind of talking about in terms of getting to know a guy in the correct way is more just the talking stage? It's not really actually dating. Like if you were to use modern terms, I feel like, oh my, I'm seeing your facial expressions.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

I feel like we keep coming up with these terms that all mean the same thing or that are just like dumb. Like situationship, talking stage, fling. Someone around me recently said that we have a flirty friendship. Like, what are you? What are we doing? What are we talking about? A talking stage is what? Okay, I'm getting to know you. What's dating for then? What is dating then? It's also getting to know you. Yeah, I would say that what we're talking about is a talking stage, if that's what we want to use, like 2020 language. I don't know. At the end of the day, we're all looking for someone that's gonna be our companion for a long time. We all want marriage, right? Like if you ask people who are dating, nobody's gonna be like, oh, I never want to get married. Well, not everybody, but majority of people are eventually hoping to get married. So if you're hoping to get married, what you're getting to know all these other girls in like a way more intimate way than you need to, especially knowing that that's not the person you want to commit to. So I think it's really just a time pass in the worst possible way for your heart and your mind later on.

SPEAKER_04 23:24

I agree with Lamal. I feel like the talking stage is just like the pre-stage before the relationship. So the relationship is like the pre-stage of marriage, it's just like another stage of the relationship that's before you guys are official.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

I feel like the talking stage kind of opens the door for oh, we're not exclusive. Or this is like where that connection before selection is really like okay, because he's gonna say something, you're like, Oh my god, he's so good with his siblings, he loves cats, and I love cats, and then you're building that connection, and then it's like either you're not gonna date it at all, or it's not gonna work out, and now you're heartbroken anyway because you asked all the wrong questions and you didn't realize that he was a red flag before you like.

SPEAKER_04 24:02

The amount of friends I've had that have been in talking stages and they don't even go somewhere is unbelievable.

SPEAKER_03 24:08

And then they spend the whole time, every single hangout, they're like, He said this, he left me unread for this long, he's for this long.

SPEAKER_04 24:13

And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I love you, but I don't care. No, of course I care, but in my head, I'm like, what do you expect? You're talking, and he's like 35 miles away from you. Like, what do you expect is gonna happen?

Sana 24:23

So for me, the definition of dating is when someone's officially like boyfriend and girlfriend. I think in my eyes, I would classify this process as like a talking stage. But Omel, you mentioned something which I think is an interesting question, and I really want to ask all of your opinions on this. Is you said that a talking stage isn't exclusive. Do you think that if you're going on marriage meetings, say it's like one of the first marriage meetings with someone, say there's someone else who comes with a proposal, should you then shut that down, or is it okay to have marriage meetings with different people at the same time? What are your guys' thoughts on that? Ooh, that's a good question.

SPEAKER_03 25:04

That's a good question.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

Okay, so recently I had a family friend that is looking to get married, and another one of our family friends was interested in this family friend. So there's two family friends are interested in each other. The girl's family really liked our other family friend because they knew him and they were comfortable with his family, and they were like, This is gonna be a really good match. We know that they've talked before, they work out whatever. But when they actually started talking and they did talk about their expectations about what their roles would be in the marriage, she wasn't comfortable with his idea of marriage, and he was like, I'm really not completely ready for this either. And she wanted to get married right away, so she went and talked to somebody else that was also interested in her. She had another proposal on the table, and she ended up going with that proposal. But our other family friend was upset about it because he was like, Why didn't you disclose that there was another person that you were thinking about? Because now I feel like a second option, and it caused like this whole thing. So I feel like obviously it's okay for you to pursue different people, you should be getting to know in this way with this framework when you're protecting yourself. Okay, because if it doesn't work out, obviously you're not gonna be like, Well, I'm never gonna talk to anybody ever again. That's not helpful either. But I think definitely disclosing is important, everybody's situation is gonna be different, putting out feelers for what that person's thinking, letting them know beforehand, like be like, hey, I'm getting to know you for the sake of marriage, and I do have another interested party. And if they're uncomfortable with that, then you don't have to go forward back. I think it's just a matter of what all everyone is comfortable with.

Sharif Faizullah 26:25

So I want to share this with you. Do you remember how we talked about marriage roadmap? So we got your heart, your mind, you know what makes marriage work and whatnot. Figure out your career and education. This is where you have your marriage magnet and you get your parents on board. With this in mind, this is where the funnel begins. So imagine this is a funnel. So basically, that marriage magnet becomes a filter. Any potential guy coming through, anybody and everybody's welcome. There is no exclusivity, there's none of that. Marriage magnets come, proposals come, introductions happen, and then based on your deal makers and deal breakers, you say yes, no, or maybe. You say yes, that means moving on to the next step, and you say no, so they're gone, or you say maybe, so you gotta look into it further. This is called tofu. So tofu is actually, you see this funnel here? This is the top of the funnel. The middle of the funnel, it's called, can you guess? Mofu. Such a creative name, right? Mofu. Oh my god, brilliant. So creative, right? Bofu. So here's the deal. When you start searching, that's the top of the funnel. You literally tell the whole world, everybody, hey, I'm available, I'm ready, bring it on. And you get your marriage ambassadors on board, you recruit them. Here, you send out people, so send your marriage magnet shared with the world. And then when you talk to them, you're actually meeting with that guy face to face in person. Only people you say yes at tofu stage, you get them to hear where you actually talk to them. Is it exclusive yet? Have you made a commitment to this guy yet?

Sana 27:55

No.

Sharif Faizullah 27:56

No, it's getting to know each other stage, but it is getting to know each other at a deeper level. So you have deep conversation, long-term, multiple meetings. And then, let's say you talk to a couple of them, one of them or two of them, you get them to the next stage where you do vetting and verification. I'm just gonna put V and V. So you talk to them, you vet them, you verify them, you do all of that, bottom of the funnel. You can actually do it here. And then at the end, after the bottom of the funnel, only one guy will remain. So at the decision stage, you go through the decision checklist and you say, Alright, I'm ready to move forward. That's when engagement happens. Or you say, I'm sorry, we're not a good fit for each other. Only after engagement it becomes exclusive. Until then, there is no exclusivity at all. Once you say, Alright, you know what, we're a good fit for each other, let's get married. That's called engagement. When I see people engaged for six months to a year, it just drives me crazy. I'm like, what? Give me one good reason why you would have an engagement that long. Because you need to plan a wedding of the century? There has got to be a good reason for that. So what people do is like, oh, now we get to know each other. No, it makes absolutely no sense because you've already done all of that. How did you make the decision to get engaged to him? You vetted him, verified him. You actually made a decision, you're actually ready to say I do. That's why you're engaged to him. So some people get the idea wrong where they go, oh, we're engaged, now we are serious, now we're gonna have a deep conversation. No, that's just giving you time to invite everyone and do whatever wording preparation you need to do.

Sana 29:23

I've got a question. What stage would you let the person know that there's another potential or there's another person you're getting to know?

Sharif Faizullah 29:32

Here, if you are considering multiple people, multiple contenders, here you can let them know at the bofu, at the bottom of the funnel level. At tofu, top of the funnel, there is no exclusivity. It's just like we got a marriage proposal, we just inquire, we talk to his parents, maybe whatnot. That's it. Somehow they think, oh, because I'm asking you a couple of questions, we're gonna get married. They've never heard of the concept of interviewing multiple applicants for a job. So you talk to someone about a job, does that mean that person is gonna be the one you hire? No. This is a ludicrous idea. You may be interviewing 10 people for that position. How you hire someone for a position, you're literally doing the same thing. Are you not hiring someone for your future husband role? Are you not hiring someone for your future father of your future children's role? Like, come on.

unknown 30:14

Yeah.

Sharif Faizullah 30:14

So over here you can let them know, okay, we have multiple people to finalize. Now, varying and verifying, ideally, you want to do it one at a time. So one guy, you go through the process in varying verification, it doesn't work out, then you go back to this funnel. But in Mofu stage, you could have multiple people here, multiple contenders. And this is the thing though. So you can widen this. The more people coming through the funnel, the more people will actually go through the following stage.

Sana 30:39

I have another question.

Sharif Faizullah 30:40

Another question?

Sana 30:42

I've got a lot today. Go for it, go for it. How many people do you think is too many people to have at stage eight, like up until that point? Is there a limit that you'd suggest or everyone can come through? It I mean, everyone who passes through the chat.

Sharif Faizullah 30:56

Yeah, there are two things actually. You could open up to opportunity, so that is something you don't control. Whenever opportunity shows up, you're open and ready, you're going about, you're finishing your degree, establishing your job, and whatnot. Whenever that comes, you're open to it. The other one is based on a deadline. I'm gonna consider everyone who comes through in the next six months or the at the end of the year. Let's say you've gotten 12 marriage magnets or 12 potential candidates. From there, you make a short list. You don't talk to all 12, by the way. Without even talking to any one of them, you and your marriage team can eliminate a lot of them because they have some of your deal breakers. There's no need to waste your time talking to them. You are like the princess, you are the CEO of the future company that you're gonna found. You only talk to potential candidates, people who actually passed the first filtration. There is no limit, but from here, then I would say make a short list. You want to say, all right, how many people fit that criteria? And from there, you don't necessarily have to go and talk to all of them. You can have your dad or your brother or your uncle, somebody talk to them. It could be your sister also, talk to them, call up. It could be a video call, let them do the first thing. If a guy is like maybe in on paper, everything looks good, but after talking to them, like, I know for sure my sister is not gonna like this club. There's just no way. So you eliminate that as well. Then you only talk to people who remain in that list. That could be two guys, that could be five guys, it doesn't matter. From there, you say those who are serious after talking to them, you're like, hey, I think these two people they have potential. You go into the next second, third, and fourth meeting. So you keep on going through the funnel unless they are eliminated. Does that make sense?

Sana 32:25

Using the word eliminate to just remind me of you know the squid games. That's how this sounds like.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

It's like Love Island. You've been dumped off.

Sharif Faizullah 32:34

It's the process of elimination. The way to get to the right answer is get rid of the wrong answer. Don't look for Mr. Wright. You don't know Mr. Wright, but know who Mr. Wrong is. Get rid of Mr. Wrong from your life, man. Now you're opening up the door for Mr. Wright. That's where marriage magnet, knowing what you want out of life, what kind of marriage you want, all of that will give you that clarity. You know what? I can easily say no to this guy. Oh, he is so handsome, he's hot, he's charming. Oh my god. But that's not the kind of husband I want in the future. Just knowing that you will safeguard your heart and you're not gonna fall into that trap.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

I kept thinking of the cell membrane the whole time we were talking about the what are we gonna let in and let out? I think you we forget sometimes how much control we really have over these situations.

Sharif Faizullah 33:18

A lot.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Because we're so unprepared and uneducated, and you just kind of get flung into this. Like, oh, I don't have any idea or control over this, but you do. Like, I am the princess, I am the CEO throughout this whole thing. I was like, honestly, you don't really have to worry about cutting off or worrying about exclusivity either. Because I feel like we're all thinking about it in the sense of all the guys you can be in one room and I'm gonna like go around speed dating all of them. I'm gonna go ask you one question, then I'm gonna talk to him. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, I'm gonna meet all of them within the same week. It would be so jumbled in my brain. I'd be like, I don't even remember what he said or what he said or what he said. If you have a potential person, depending on how intensive your deal makers and deal breakers are, but I feel like in a very, very short amount of time, you can figure out if he's good or not. Whatever time you think you need to get to know the first person, you'll know right away. He's not it, you don't need to tell him about your other options actually, because he's done. So then move on. So I think looking at it as a funnel kind of changed my opinion of what I said earlier, where like you need to let people know because that would only be a thing if you were gonna talk to all of them at the same time. Then it's awkward. They're like, hey, can we keep this short? I have to go meet so and so after this. I'd be like, excuse you, keep him to yourself. I don't treat others how you want to be treated. If you wanted him to disclose it, then you should disclose it, but also just give yourself time in between. Don't pressure yourself into talking to all of them at the same time either, because it is a process and you need to take it seriously.

Sana 34:39

I have another question for everyone. Yeah, there's a lot today. Say there was a potential, if you say to the guy, oh, you're not my only one, I'm currently speaking to, let's say two or three, if he was to get annoyed or jealous about that, would that be a red flag for you? And then on the flip side of that, do you think it'd be okay if the guy was to say that I'm talking to a couple of girls? Do you think it's okay for you to like outwardly say that you feel a bit jealous or anything like that? You will never catch me telling anyone I'm jealous. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

First of all, you don't have that importance right now. But I feel like depending on their attitude towards it, I would say yeah. Because I feel like the right guy who actually is gonna stick it out, he's gonna know. You want him to assume that you are the prize to get. Like, there are other interested parties, and he wants to be the one that sticks it out. I would want someone that's like, okay, talk to them. I don't care. I know I'm the best one.

SPEAKER_04 35:33

Kind of exactly what Amal said. I don't really get jealous unless I care about you. I personally would not get it offended, especially because it's probably like gonna be like one of the first times we've met. Um, not gonna be like, wow, I barely know you, but you can't talk to anyone else but me. But at the same time, I could see why other girls, like other people, they might get a little pushback. Maybe for them, they're only talking to you. And having someone say, Oh, I'm exploring other options can maybe lead them to feel dejected in some ways, even though nothing bad happened. Like it has to be how they bring it up, the tone. Um, as long as they're not being hot macho about it, like, yeah, I'm seeing multiple people. Um because at the end of the day, it's not supposed to be to invoke jealousy, it's supposed to just let them in and it's a transparency type of thing.

Sharif Faizullah 36:15

What's wrong with jealousy if the guy or you feel jealous? What's wrong with that?

SPEAKER_04 36:19

For me, it might be just a personal indicator that that's not someone I want to continue, especially if he's getting jealous about something that when we first met, it might be like a hindrance later on in our relationship.

Sharif Faizullah 36:30

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 36:31

If you're already jealous and this is the first meeting, why do you have that possession over me already? That would be a red flag to me that like you feel that you have this, I guess, claim over my time. Because there is no exclusivity at that point, there is supposed to be options. So if you don't want me to have options, what's the deal? Siren would go off my head at first.

SPEAKER_04 36:51

This is kind of weird, but like I know some people, like my friends, they're like, Oh yeah, my significant other, they're so jealous of me. It's so adorable. And I'm like, you think it's adorable at first because it's simple things to be so jealous of, like you being on your phone. But when you spend more time with that person, they're not gonna want you to go out, they're not gonna want you to see your friends, and even longer down the road, they might start getting mad about how much time you're spending with your job, how much time you're putting into the kids rather than the significant other. For me, it's just not something that I can see myself seeing past that unless they work on it themselves.

Sana 37:21

My perspective on it is that as an emotion, I can understand that you don't have a massive amount of control over it, but it's about how you then deal with that. If I was just told, like, oh, that makes him feel a bit jealous, that's the end of the conversation. For me, that would be more of a green flag because you can express that that's how you're feeling. But if it was like I'd get little digs from it that, like, oh, so you're talking to more than me? Am I not good enough? Why? I don't want you to. That is when I'd be like, no, that's now a red flag for me. Because as Omo said, like, why do you think you have that kind of possession over me and think that you can somewhat be disrespectful to me when at this current point in time you are nobody to me?

SPEAKER_02 38:00

I feel like there's a time and a place for jealousy to be reflected. And the thing is, these are such complex emotions because they usually have negative connotations to them. There's jealousy that leads to like envy or possessiveness or anger, and then there's jealousy that's like, okay, that bothers me a little bit, but it's not something that's gonna bleed into other areas of my life. Our first meeting, and they're already upset. Like, you think that I'm just an option for you, blah blah blah. You should take me more seriously. That's like an insecurity. I feel like you can tell by the way that they reflect their jealousy, where they're gauged at that, versus like if I was married and let's say I was talking to such and such, if my husband has no jealousy, that's also weird to me. Like, I want you to be a little bit protective, be a little bit possessive at that point, because now you have that right over me. It's not that jealousy is a bad thing, but when it bleeds into other areas or it shows an insurance, it's a red flag. Exactly.

Sharif Faizullah 38:49

That's the thing. When I said what's wrong with jealousy, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. If the person actually feels it, he might be saying it in a humorous, playful way, like, should I be jealous? You're talking to multiple guys. That shows his sense of humor and he's able to express himself. To me, that would be excellent. You feel jealous? Okay, excellent. It's a feeling, nothing wrong with that. How that might show up in marriage in the future, that's what you want to put on your detective hat for. That's where you actually can ask those questions. That could become a window. So I'm actually talking to multiple people just to make sure if we can go to the next stage. What do you think about that? You can just leave it open-ended, see what the guy comes back with. And if the guy says it's the same thing, you have to expect that. This is normal. There is no exclusivity. You have not made a promise to each other. Whenever people say dating is this or that, I say, what do you mean by dating? If you mean getting to know the guy for the purpose of marriage in a safe way, in a way that's not gonna waste my time or that's not putting my heart at risk, I say go for it. But if you mean dating is like casually having coffee and chit-chatting on the phone and texting, but no intention of marriage, even if there is intention of marriage, but it's like far into the future, we're not talking about it and it's hidden. I'm playing hide and seek with my friends and parents, nobody knows about it. I'm dealing with multiple guys at the same time, I want to be pro at this. That's the thing that we're saying of like stay away from that. And if you want to use courting, getting to know that person seriously for the sake of marriage, then yeah, I think courting and courtship is a better word than dating. What happens, they are very similar, they're not that different. But it's a matter of making sure you're doing it in a fast way, you don't waste time, and doing it in a safe way. That's where if you have third party, even if you're not able to have someone else present, at least let them know where you are. If you're on a video call, you can have somebody else join in there. Also, in the tofu stage, you don't need to meet face to face. I don't recommend you actually sitting down with him face to face in person in the top of the funnel. No. Top of the funnel is all about your marriage team doing the legwork for you on your behalf. They are gonna do the process of elimination. You don't need to worry about that. You only worry about the top contenders, they're the semifinalists, and then the finalists are the ones that you go and vet and verify, you do a deep dive background check and all of that. Whoever wins, that becomes the person that you can have a verbal engagement with. Any final thought? Anything else surprising?

SPEAKER_02 41:00

Throughout this little last section of the conversation, I was kind of flip-flopping my mind whether disclosing was appropriate or not. But then after you mentioned jealousy, I think with the appropriate tone and at the right time, disclosing might actually be a good thing because it's like another filter. You disclose and you see how do they handle jealousy? How do they handle knowing that maybe they're not the only option? I feel like it gives you kind of a precursor for how they might be with handling those complex emotions. So I'm gonna double down and say you do need to disclose.

Sharif Faizullah 41:28

When your marriage team does that initial communication, there's something that I recommend they say. It's something like this We are getting to know each other with the intention of marriage. We want to see if we would be a good fit for each other. If we realize that we're not a good fit, no harm, no foul, we just go our separate ways. And I wish you guys the best. When your family members talk to the other side, that needs to be the first thing they say. I know a lot of people misunderstand that just because the parents call it's like official. No, come on, it's just the very preliminary stage. You haven't even entered the arena where that fighting is going on. I think fighting is a bad analogy. But in the arena, there's like a tournament. So you have a lot of contenders and then they go into the next one and then the semifinal and then they go to the final. So at that level, I think that is extremely, extremely helpful to say that. And when you meet with the guy for the first time, same introduction. Is it okay if we ask each other a lot of questions so that we understand each other? And it's possible that at the end of the day we say, Hey, we're not a good fit for each other, and that's okay. Having that at the beginning, boom, you're making your life easy, but you're also making it easy for him as well. So now there is no false expectation. Does that make sense?

Sana 42:31

I think I found most surprising in this chapter is the last bit in bold. The more relationships you have before marriage, the more unhappy you'll be in your marriage. Before reading this, I kind of knew it, but it was something that I kind of just was like, mmm, it could just not be true, it could just be my experience of life. That statement is taken from the National Marriage Project, which is a very official database. It's not just something that's being said, it's actually something that's been proven. And also had a little scroll on the website. It's actually quite interesting. If anyone's interested, if you're into your statistics, check that website out.

SPEAKER_02 43:05

Yeah, that was definitely a surprising insight for me too. Because I think we all kind of know that, like, okay, dating isn't gonna take me anywhere, or this is probably isn't gonna have any helpful effects on my future marriage. But knowing that it is something that's proven, it's not just in your head, and kind of having that to back it up and be like, okay, no, don't do that.

SPEAKER_04 43:22

Exactly. Yeah, Western dating. I feel like if you're dating just a date, like we talked about, it kind of opens the idea of not being true to your dean. It opens more areas, more space for mistakes, and obviously people can learn and stuff, but at least in my perspective, I think it's important to start with a blank slate. It just shows that when you eventually get married, that it's not going to be the best that it could be. Islamically, you're you're building foundation in a way that you both can flourish. And I think that's pretty much the biggest reason why relationships within Islam are the way that they are.

SPEAKER_02 43:53

Yeah, I have one more thought on something else that's in bold in the chapter that a great date does not equal a Great me, like I said earlier, when you're dating, it kind of takes off the pressure because people assume that it's a little bit more casual, it's a little bit more, I guess, just unserious because it's not marriage, it's like the practice round for marriage in a lot of people's minds, and it's so they think it takes the pressure off. And so, usually when you're dating someone, they're not gonna show you their full self. And like Sharifsa said before, the only true love test is marriage, like you can only know how someone is in marriage when you're married. Dating, of course, he's gonna try to woo you, of course, it's gonna be kind of unserious. You're not necessarily gonna ask all the questions you would ask if you were really for sure pursuing a marriage, or you might ask those questions later into dating, but by that time you've already built this like six-month, a year, three-year bond, and then it's harder to cut off that relationship now that you know that they have these red flags. So just because they're good at dating doesn't mean they're gonna be good at being married to you, a good husband, a good father. You have to be asking the right question and going through the funnel and having a married magnet. Those are the things that you should be asking right from the beginning instead of like building a connection and doing it later on into your dating or whatever. If you want to call it dating, call it that getting to know that person, but get to know them in that shorter time frame and ask those questions from the very beginning because that's what's gonna benefit you way further than like favorite color, favorite food, favorite pet.

Sharif Faizullah 45:16

Yeah. One more question. How would you define the phrase halal dating?

Sana 45:22

I think for me it would be asking questions that are relevant, as I'm always said, like not asking like favourite colour, favorite pet, asking questions that are actually important to try and figure out whether there's a viable future, and another kind of requisite I'd have in terms of the actual in-person meetings that someone else is always involved, and it's not just the two of you. Thirdly, which I think is a bit common sense, but the goal is marriage and not to have the whatever you want to call it, the dating, talking stage, whatever, go on for unnecessarily long. This is kind of just the hurdle you have to jump, it's not the end point, the end point is marriage.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Yeah, I feel like halal dating was really big when I was in middle school. I don't know if that was the same for you guys. I remember when I was in middle school, that was like the thing that was all over everywhere. Everybody was talking about it. If memory serves, it was like no labels, there was no like boyfriend, girlfriend. We were just talking, you wouldn't go out with them in person or anything, you would just be talking on the phone. But like, it's just dumb because that's just a talking stance. We're like that, you know, guys. There's too many terms, there's too many names. I don't know what to define them all as. They all sound the same to me. It's just like different ways of trying to get to know this person, and some of them come with different caveats. Okay, if you want to get to know someone, great, get to know them, ask the right questions. Start asking the right questions.

SPEAKER_04 46:39

Yeah, pretty much what both of you guys said getting to know someone in a way that it's intentional. You're getting close to someone in the quote unquote right way. If you're meeting, you have someone else there, so it's not just the two of you alone. You're talking about specific things that are relevant, so it's not like, oh, I like cats, what's your favorite thing? It's more like this is me, this is what I see myself doing within our home dynamic. What do you see? Just making sure you agree on pretty much basic fundamental things without being promiscuous if that's the right word to do it. So you're getting to know each other in a way that's true to yourself and true to your deed.

Sharif Faizullah 47:12

I've heard this phrase so many times. People use it often. Some people are for it, some people are against it. So let me share two sides of this coin. You could consider halal dating an oxymoron. You guys know what an oxymoron is, right? You have two things that contradict each other. So halal dating would be an oxymoron if you're meeting with the guy one-to-one in a private setting. I'm talking about complete seclusion. No one knows that you're meeting and if there is any type of physical intimacy involved, and then if you're doing it hide and seek, that means your family is not involved. And one of your main goals is you want some type of emotional or physical benefit out of it. Then halal dating would be an oxymoron. But if somebody is actually meeting with a guy in a public setting or in a group setting, they are not playing hide and seek, their family is involved, their marriage team is involved, and they're actually letting them know that the goal is to make sure, hey, are we compatible with each other for marriage? Are we a good fit for each other for marriage? Then if someone says halal dating with that in mind, I think that is appropriate. This is something you will see throughout this whole thing. People throw out terms like feminism, toxic masculinity. We were talking about jealousy earlier. We have so many of these terms, and whatever idea you have in your mind, you might think that's how everybody else looks at it. Not so. Most of these words are actually not black and white. So you gotta say, okay, what do you mean by that? And when you talk to a guy, this is the key. Define these words. So, what are your thoughts on feminism? What are your thoughts on jealousy? Ask those open-ended questions. That's gonna get you a lot more out of it. I've always thought halal dating was kind of suspicious depending on how people mean it. So be wary. If somebody is saying they're doing halal dating and they're actually doing it in the right way, don't beat them down about just yeah, it's fine. But if somebody is doing it in the wrong way and they're actually like, oh, I'm doing it in a halal way, then maybe talk to them gently. Without judgment, you know, Muslims are pretty bad when it comes to doing things judgment-free. We have a stick with us, like, this is not right, that is not right. You don't know where the person is coming from, you don't know the upbringing they had. Have some sympathy at the same time, do your best. But if they're your friends, I think you can be a little bit stern with them. Like, yo, what you doing, man? Or woman. You are allowed to have feelings. I cannot think of one single reason you would have to tell the guy that you have a crush on him.

Sana 49:29

Crush your crush, you're like, oh, he's cute. Give it two weeks and you're like respectfully. What was I thinking? If he's a red flag, girl, tell someone and run away. Instead of a 30 day crush your crush, just a forever your crush.

SPEAKER_02 49:41

It becomes like a parasitic relationship where they're kind of like feeding off your energy.

Sharif Faizullah 49:44

What if you have a crush on someone who's married?