SPEAKER_02 0:00

Just because he has good deen doesn't mean he has good character.

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Is he conscious of Allah all the time or just in front of people? Don't be fooled by someone's outside religiosity.

SPEAKER_03 0:09

You don't have to marry him. Blink twice if you need help. I want to be the one steering that car. Because I need to be in control in every situation. You can be in the passenger seat. I'm driving. I need to be the FBI, I need to have the CIA on speed dial.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

If you want to marry Muhammad, you better be Khadija.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

There is no compromise, there is no sacrifice.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

You want all to rank up that marriage that MBA divorce proof your future marriage today. Why Marvel needs DC comics? So, Amal, what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Just because he has good theme doesn't mean he has good character. I feel like everyone is so dismissive about that because they're like, oh, he praises in Mazas, he's a hafiz. Like that automatically means he's sent from heaven. He must be the perfect man. But unfortunately, this is not a perfect world, and those things are not mutually exclusive. One thing doesn't mean the other.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

I guess this is something that you kind of subconsciously know, but you need someone to spell it out for you like step by step. You kind of assume that Dean and Character come hand in hand that, like, oh yeah, he prays five times a day. Like, obviously, then now he's gonna be a really good person. It works in an ideal world, yeah, that would be the case, but this is real life and it isn't as simple as that.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Yeah, I think you automatically want to assume that because they prioritize Dean, that they must prioritize everything that is a part of Dean and like being a good person, being kind, treating their wife and kids well, and you just want to assume the best in them because they're putting that best foot forward, it's not always true. I've seen it firsthand. People who have the best image of all time at the Majin and everybody looks up to them, and then in their personal life, they're just not good people, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Yeah, and sadly from what I've seen, like that is actually just such a common thing, which I think as well deters people from becoming more religious because they kind of think, well, I've seen all these other people who have become more religious. If I become like them, then I'll also become like them in the other way, like the way they treat the people closest to them, which is actually quite sad.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

Yeah, and I also feel like this just ties into the extreme of religion red flag, it puts up kind of a signal. So making sure that they're not too extreme and it also means they're compatible with you and they have good character.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Not to forget the compatibility part in this section as well, that that is such a big thing.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Compatibility doesn't mean the same. If you find a guy like, oh, I'm a coffee guy, and the guy's like, oh, I don't drink coffee, I only drink tea and whatnot, don't focus on that stuff. That actually adds variety. Maybe he'll introduce you to a lot of teas that you never experienced before. Maybe you can introduce him to a lot of coffee he never experienced. Before marriage, I never ate sushi in my life. Never. My wife introduced me to sushi. We get to make each other's life rich. So do not look for a clone. Don't look for someone who agrees with you on everything. That's why compatible, we're gonna talk about it next. It does not mean the same. It means you fit together. It's like a two piece of puzzle. I did exactly the same, not necessarily. They could be curved completely differently, but they fit together. That's what you want.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

When I was reading through the chapter, it did remind me of a story. My friend was telling me this that her, like a distant relative, this was years and years ago, the man and the woman had only heard of each other through other people. They didn't live in the same area. I think one was from somewhere in the UAE and the other one was in America. And the family members had spoken to each other, agreed to get married, never spoke to each other, just kind of knew basics that like she was an Islam, he was like half his. And then they ended up getting married after never seeing each other, never speaking to each other. I think now they've got two kids, they're really happy, obviously, both living in the UAE. I don't really agree with that kind of set of marriage, but just kind of popped to mind when I was reading this that it can work, but I think that's like a one in a million chance of not knowing your compatibility level.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

I think that's the exception, not the rule. Like there are people that everything just works out for them. You know what I mean? But I definitely I don't think I would ever recommend that. Just having your mutuals talk to each other, because then, like, what if they're not asking what you would ask? They ask the bare minimum, they ask something completely different, and obviously nobody's gonna know you or that other person the way that you know each other. Like you would be able to ask questions and give answers much better than anyone could. Like, my mom's my best friend. I'm sure that if someone asked her about me, she would give them an answer, but maybe not the right answer, even if I tell her everything, because I would answer differently. I'm me. So I don't think I would recommend that, like having your mutuals talk to each other just because you personally being in that situation is completely different.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

If say someone said you're gonna get a brand new house, you can design it however you want. If someone was like, Okay, you can choose someone else to design your house for you. I don't think I'd pick anyone because I don't think anyone knows my thought process well enough to design a house for me. So why am I going to let someone else do that for one of the most important decisions of my life? I just think I would want to be involved in that. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 4:50

That's so common too, like people who are like, Oh, I don't even care. Like, I don't want to be involved in this decision-making process. Mom, dad, find someone for me. What I don't know if that's just me, because I need to be in control in every situation, but I'm like, no, you can't find anybody for me. Thank you. I need to be the FBI, I need to have the CIA on speed dials, I'm gonna find him and it's resting.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Yeah, I'd be open to having help. Yeah, but I want to be the one steering that car. You can be in the passenger seat, you can be in the back seat. I'm driving.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Yeah, I was just gonna say that because in the book it mentions having marriage ambassadors. You want to have people around you that can help you in these situations. You don't want to be completely solo, but also just giving your marriage ambassador the wheel completely is a little crazy. Because then again, they don't know your dean character compatibility to the same extent that you would know yours, and they may not be asking what you want them to ask. So, to listeners, if you do have marriage ambassadors, maybe talk about all of these things. What are you looking for in compatibility, Dean and character? You need all three, don't compromise on any of them. You need all three Dean, character, and compatibility.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Would you rather go for someone who on the Dean scale, let's say, is closer to you or someone who's a little bit more than you, but not at the extreme, but like a few steps up from you.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

A few steps up because so my mom always tells me, like, you never want to be the smartest in the room because there's no room for growth. And I would apply that everywhere in life. So whenever I'm with a group of people, I want to surround myself with people who are a little bit better than me because I want to get to that level. So I would find a spouse that is probably a little bit more pious than me because I would want to put myself into the practices that he's practicing, and I would want him to push me to be better that we can grow together. That's just my personal preference in that.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

But what about you? I don't know. I'm kind of like tall in between both options. That's why I wanted to know your opinion first. Obviously, it's ideal that you go for level 10 on Dean, but if you're not up to that, then life is going to be very difficult for you, and like raising kids is going to be difficult. And if you're not used to that lifestyle, don't force yourself into that lifestyle. So, on that hand, I'm thinking I'd rather go for someone more my level so that you're not trying to force things, but then on the other hand, basically everything that you just said going for someone a few steps above that like you want to keep improving. This might be a bit of a controversial opinion, but I believe that the guy leads the relationship, so his morals and values is what kind of steers the family. So if he's a little bit more religious than you, then the likelihood of your kids kind of being a bit more on Dean is increased. So I think I'd probably go a few steps more than me. But yeah, my next follow-up question for you is how many steps up would you go? Like, how would you judge that?

SPEAKER_02 7:37

I was just about to say that to you. I was like, I feel like they're a little bit subjective. You can pick how much more pious than you they are. Um so I do agree with you. If I'm not used to practicing like that, and now my husband expects me to do that every day, all day, starting from day one, that's gonna be a struggle. And I don't want to then either resent him or resent my faith. I don't want to put myself in that position. So I would probably pick someone who's very, very similar to my level of practicing, but maybe has a family that prioritizes Dean, or he has a growth mindset of whatever he does, he has fear of Allah and has a lot on his mind because then at least I know that he cares and he prioritizes it and he will grow and he wants to grow. And that's the mindset we should all have. So that's probably what I would look for.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yeah, that makes sense. One thing that I would probably look for as well is in the areas that I'm weak in, I'd definitely want him to be stronger in them and not be at the same level that I'm at.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Yeah, you'd have like a more well-rounded picture if you both have a strength in the have you guys heard the word hypergummy?

SPEAKER_00 8:41

That's when women marry guys who have more money, more status, then then yeah, so marrying up women tend to do that, but this is one area what I actually recommend women do do that. But let's say you will pray only Juma'a and your husband prays five times a day. Is he expecting you to do that from day one to start praying five times a day? So it's not about the distance, it's about is he going to force that on you, or is he going to give you room to grow and slowly adapt to it? But he's making it clear, hey, this is what I expect in the future. So it's more about the attitude than his current practice level. So that's one mistake I've seen a lot of people do. They marry up, but they don't have that conversation. Whoa, what are your expectations? Is it from day one? What if I never get there? What is the bare minimum you would be okay with your wife practice raising children? What level of religiosity do you want them to have? So those are some of the questions of conversation that would be extremely helpful. So let me ask you this how do you know if a guy has good deen besides the ones that are invisible? How do you know?

SPEAKER_01 9:42

There's like different ways to tackle this. One way would be to ask around maybe in friend circles, or maybe if you've got like a grand teacher or something like that, because they will know him from a different angle and probably know him in ways that you won't be able to at this point in time. Another way I think is try and figure out his mindset. I think if you ask certain questions, you can get an insight into his thought process. And if his thought process isn't aligned with the dean, you can kind of assess his internal religiousness in a sense. Instead of just taking things like, okay, does he wear a job bar? Does he have a long beard? They kind of give a slight indication, but not a true indication if you're looking at person as a whole.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

With this, I kind of would take physical appearance out of it because that can only take you so far. I definitely do think you can learn a lot by asking certain questions because the way they answer will probably show you their thought process, which should include thine. And then just really intense vetting and verification. I recently especially have seen a lot of people my age get married to these men, and then I've heard horror stories about their marriages. These people are like leading namazes, they're super involved, and that means okay, they do practice. I'm seeing him practice, but then you turn around and he's not a good husband. I'm just like, what are you supposed to do there? So I guess best you can vetting and verifying, like, make sure he does go to the majid. Is he practicing? Does he keep up with masjid events? Like, is it just prayer or does he actually want to be involved in the community? How are his friends? That will show you a lot. How is his family? That will also show you a lot. Who does he surround himself with? Wherever he's placed himself in his life, that's where you're gonna end up. So I guess look at what he's doing, where he's going. Be a stalker.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Don't put too much focus on the observable aspect only. This is why a lot of people get in trouble because they see the outward religiosity and they're like, oh my god, they're mesmerized by that. But inside, it could be hollow, it could be rotten. How do you know that? That's why asking those deep questions. Don't ask yes or no question. Always ask follow-up. Tell me more. Why? What are your thoughts behind that? What if that happens? What if I don't agree with you? You want to test him and prod and poke at him from different angles to see how he reacts. This is the very common mistake. Having a beard, having a long soap, and going to the masjid all the time. But if a guy shows up for fajr, I will probably count it more in his favor than if he's showing up for Maghrib. Because showing up for Maghrib is easy. Showing up for fajr, that shows real character, especially in the winter time. You don't want to get up out of under your blanket. When you get up, you make wudu, you get out of your house, you actually go to the masjid for fajr. So if you're looking for someone who actually means the religion, that's one quality I would look for. So from the outward religiosity, there are some things I would not really put a lot of value in it. It depends on what's in his inside. If the inside matches, okay, now the outside makes sense. If the inside doesn't match, I would be extremely careful about that. So don't be fooled by someone's outside religiosity. This is why when people think of somebody's dean, they think of what's on the outside and that they get into trouble later.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

With inward dean, a lot of the red flags that we talked about will give you that indicator. Foul language, being terrible with money, like if he's okay with having a lot of debt, if he compiles a lot of interest, those kinds of things. If you're confused on how do I know how he is on the inside, those are the questions to be asking. You don't have to frame it like, oh, what do you think about this religious-wise? You can just ask him, view him day to day. He's going to employ whatever practices he holds near and dear, if he holds them near and dear. So you want to see what practice he is employing. So all of those red flags, look at them from a religious framework, and that's gonna tell you a lot of what you need to know.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

And there are a lot of clues we'll cover. So how he interacts with the opposite gender is actually a big clue to both dean and character. If you have a lot of guy friends, but if he is chatting up a woman and you feel icky about that, you also have to look inward as well. If you're like, hey, I pray maybe once in a while, only maybe it's Friday sometimes, and then you expect him to wake up and pray Tahud, that's not compatible at all. Tell me, that's just not compatible. I heard someone said beautifully, if you want to marry Muhammad, you better be Khadija. So they're like, if you want to marry someone at that level, you want to do your best to get there. Dream a little bit. I learned this from Muhammad the Sharif. His thing is don't be realistic, but don't be completely unrealistic either. He's used to say, be slightly unrealistic. That's slightly what makes it is like it is within my capacity, it is within my reach, but I gotta push myself to get there. It gives me a little butterfly, it gives me excitement. Oh my god, I don't know if I can do it or not. That's what you want. So when it comes to a marriage, when it comes to any goal, when it comes to the type of husband you want, or that's like, oh, this is realistic for you, push a little bit more. Don't go to unrealistic, but push a little bit more. So this will raise your standard and this will also raise everybody else's standard around you.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

I think one thing that you made me think of is that you kind of have to assess his actions based on where he does them as well. If you were to just be like, oh, he goes to the mosque and prays five times a day, you don't know whether that is because he knows that he should be going to the mosque or whether it's because all his friends are going to the mosque and if he doesn't go, they're all gonna be like, Why weren't you at mosque? You know what I mean? Like you need to like figure out why he does what he does, whether it's for other people, or it's like if he's like by himself, is he still doing good deeds, good things, is he conscious of Allah all the time or just in front of people because that will give you an indication of whether he will hold up a facade of your marriage or if he will genuinely bring Islam into your marriage behind closed doors and treat you right?

SPEAKER_02 15:15

That's actually a really, really, really good point. I think that kind of falls into what you said earlier, like ask questions about his thought process. Because is he following Bean because he actually truly has a love for Islam or is he following Bean because it's cool? Because there are certain communities where that's just like the norm and Islam doesn't really have a merit. Okay, you do it because we do it, not oh, we we do it for something. So I guess finding out what is your reason for being the way you are, which is a very intense question. I don't even know how we would ask that to someone, but you can figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Yeah, I guess like one question you could ask is what has made you follow Islam? Like what is your reasoning behind it? Whether it's oh my mom and dad, we've always done it, so I just keep doing it, or if there's a story or something that'll give you a bit of like a reason.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

So let me give some context here. Any information you learn about the guy, it could fall under one or two categories. It'll either be a fact or it's an opinion. So you need to know the difference between the two a fact, he has $3,000 in credit card loan. If it's based on a financial background check, that's a fact. He is good with his money, that's an opinion. He is generous, he gives good tips. Well, that's an opinion. You want to differentiate between those two things. So that's the first thing. Second is the sources of that information, right? Whether it's a fact or opinion, what are the sources? You talking to him, he's the source directly telling you, or your marriage team, your parents, your siblings, and whoever else you recruit. Or it could be his marriage team, or it could be third party, somebody else. Neither your part side nor on his side, other community members, so his colleagues at court and his friends, they'll be part of his marriage team. What your marriage team tells you, what your siblings and your parents tell you, you want to put a little bit more weight on that, even if it's an opinion, because hopefully they're on your side. But what his side tells you, you gotta take that with a grain of salt because they might be abolishing, they might be exaggerating, and they might be hiding some of his bad things that they don't want you to know about. So, fact and opinion, that's the first thing. Second is the sources, where is that coming from? So you could give it proper due. And the third is this there are four types of vetting and verification that you do. Number one is the criminal one. Very easy to do. Was he ever arrested? You could easily do that. Second is civil background check. I know quite a few people who got married, but the guy has some of his family somewhere else. But with a simple civil background check, you would know if the guy is being buried somewhere else. Third type is a financial background check. That's also very easy to do. And the last one, the most important one, social background check. That's where you digital footprint his social media presence and you also talk to his friends in real life. So when I say background check, I actually am talking about you know virtual life and IRL, both. So what people say vetting and verifying, I want you to know these three things in mind. So the first one was fact and opinion. Second was what's the source? Third one is have I done criminal, civil, financial, and social background checks. At the end of all of that, you can say, well, now I have done my due diligence. A lot of people they just hear some opinions from people, like random mesh of information. They're like, oh, I know enough. You actually don't know enough. I don't think you have to stalk the guy in a way. I don't you guys like mentioning. I know, of course, we mean in a joking way, but there are ways to do it in a legitimate manner where he is willing to share that information with you. Maybe you could volunteer, hey, this is my financial background check, this is my credit score, this is all the cards that I have, anything that's on your record, here it is, it's on the table. So if you start with that, I would be interested to see yours. What do you think about that? There are ways where he would actually volunteer that information. And all you need is his name and date of birth and address. You can do most of this stuff very easily.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Yeah, I think that is a very valuable thing to say that to take his family or whoever he's recruiting their opinions with precaution because obviously they're gonna try and present the best version of him to understand that and not to just take it as like, oh yeah, they said he's amazing, he's gonna be the best husband in the world. Okay, let's take it, let's get married now. Um this might not apply to some people, but I think if you've got particularly traditional parents who are quite pushy with marriage, to also potentially take your own family's opinions. Don't take it as Bible because if they're really trying to push for you to get married to this person, they might kind of leave out certain pieces of information or certain things that may trigger alarm bells in your head and make you kind of like pull the brakes. So know what people's intentions are in terms of your own circle, what their views are on marriage as well.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

You want to seek out people that are gonna give you objective opinions, not like wishy-washy opinions, like his friends, they're not gonna give you valid opinions all of the time. Neither is his family. Obviously, they have his best interests at heart. And same thing for your family, they might have your best interest at heart, but they also have a little bit of their own best interests at heart. So if they're, oh, we just want you to get married, then yeah, it's whoever's on the table, take them. So I think making sure that your team that's helping you vet and verify is apprehensive. I would probably seek out people that are a little bit hesitant and not just like, okay, for example, my parents have an arranged marriage, okay? And alhamdulillah, it worked out completely amazing for them. They love each other and respect each other, alhamdulillah. But I remember at the beginning, because my mom and dad got married quite young, my uncle, my mom's cousin, he was like, You're getting married, you don't even know him, are they forcing you? I'll come and I'll take you. Don't worry, like, you don't have to marry him. Just let me know, blink twice if you need help. Like, and throughout the process, he was completely apprehensive. He was like, No, you need to ask him this, you need to make sure he's this, you need to make sure he's that. And so, people like that are people you really want on your marriage team that are like, what do you mean? And they're actually gonna ask the questions that need to be answered.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

That is such a good point. This is why instead of getting annoyed at your parents, or especially your dad or your big brother, for asking you these annoying questions, pause for a second and appreciate why are they asking you? They're actually looking out for you. And you want someone on your team to look out for you like that. Trust me, that's the whole point of having a wali. A wali is a guardian. They are guarding you against people who might want to take advantage of you. At the same time, going back to asking friends, they might not give you an objective answer. In my experience, it depends on how you approach them and how you ask them. You can get so much more honest truth out of someone if you can disarm them at first, build a rapport and say, hey, this is why I'm doing it, they will be happy to share that information, even if it goes against their friend. You know, in when it comes to marriage, it's okay to tell about the bad qualities of someone. It's not a sin. Actually, Islam encourages that. So someone who's hung up on the idea of, oh, I don't want to backbite my friend, and if you tell them that, they're like, Oh, really? I can actually tell his flaws and I'm okay. Absolutely. There are certain questions, there are certain ways you can address that where you can actually get a lot of information out of that. But one thing I didn't mention from my previous framework of getting information out of the other side is environment. So you want to watch him, not you like stalking him. You want to have him observed in different environments. So let's say you talk to him in a cafe here somewhere, like coffee in a public place. Okay, that's one environment. Probably gonna be civil. Maybe he's at a game somewhere, sports, and he's about to lose the game. How does he react? Or maybe he's at home and you know something has happened, someone said something, how he deals with his mother, with his sisters, right? Watching him in different environments will give you different perspectives. So if you're gonna have multiple sittings with a guy, I recommend choosing different places to sit and talk. And he doesn't even have to be sitting and talking, you could be doing some activity together, it could be walking. So if you have a chaperone, they could walk behind you a little bit further away. So that's the fourth part of this whole equation. Have him observed in different environments, not just by you, by your father, by your brother, by maybe their friend. The guy is not aware that he's being observed, so he's probably being his true self. You're being observed, of course, you're gonna put your best foot forward, you're gonna be the best self. But when you're not observed, you're gonna pick your nose, you're gonna sneeze and not cover your mouth, like you're gonna do weird, dumb stuff. So it's okay, it's all part of someone's personality. So you want to find opportunities to be able to observe him in those environments.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

If you're letting him pick the place and he's comfortable and he knows that nobody on there is gonna snitch on him, or like you know what I mean? Like, people are weird, they're manipulative. I just learned this in my MIS class, data security. You assume breach and verify everything. Just assume there's something wrong and verify everything.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

When it comes to marriage, the last word verify is there. The first word is actually trust. So it's trust and verify. You take it at face value, you don't make life-changing decisions because of what he says. So you trust and you verify. So that's the only difference between data security and marriage. Anything surprising on this chapter?

SPEAKER_01 23:33

I think the only surprising thing initially was the segregation of Dean and Carol, like having them as two separate things rather than one thing altogether.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

One thing that's like surprising but shouldn't have been surprising is that the line in the book says, I said Dean character and compatibility. You want all three. I feel like a lot of times people will tell you to sacrifice what you want or like compromise, but really they're telling you to sacrifice what you want. And so I like that there's no concept of that in this chapter. With these three things, there is no compromise, there is no sacrifice, you want all three.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

I like that it's in there. Yeah, that's a really interesting thing that I didn't think about that like you're not supposed to compromise on if you're like compatible because he's so religious. Like, no, you're supposed to have all three to the extent that you want them, obviously within reasonable bounds.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Or he'll have all three, but one is less than what you want, and everyone's like, just do it, it's fine.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Anything you disagree with.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

The only section that I kind of disagree with that last point that you made is if his deen is less than you'd want it to be. But on the other side.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

So that's a good point, actually. I'm glad you brought it up. But you know the four things that's mentioned on the list, the four things people tend to usually look for virtue, nobility, wealth, and beauty. If you make deen first, the rest is up to you, action. I've actually asked someone, this is from a hadith, and it's like so well. But Rasulullah mentioned deen at the end, but he made it number one. Okay, I get it. So then what about number two, three, and four? And his answer was, it's up to you. As long as you make sure he has the deen, the rest is up to you. Now, when it comes to those three things, deen, character, and compatibility, deen is definitely number one. However, I would not compromise on the other two to the point of going below your bare minimum. No. You want to find someone who meets the minimum and maybe goes even above that. And this is another reason why starting this whole process early is helpful. The earlier you start the process, at least learning about it, you will be much more equipped to actually doing all of that vetting and verification. If you don't agree with something, I love it. The fact that Sarah, you mentioned something you disagree with, that's where growth comes from. So whatever me, Amal and Sarah say, and you don't have to agree with it. If you disagree with something, ask yourself, why am I disagreeing with that? What do I believe about that? Am I holding on to that belief because I chose that belief, or my parents just dumped that on me, or I got it from somebody else, or my friends dumped that on me? Questioning things like that will be extremely helpful. So if you guys disagree on something, definitely share that. I love hearing about disagreements. That's what makes it so much fun.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

It literally ties into every other chapter. Mr. Compatible. If you stand for nothing, you fall for everything.

SPEAKER_03 25:59

If you're dirty, I don't want you. I would never marry him. He's from this caste. Hello? Why are we not matching each other's energy right now?

SPEAKER_00 26:06

If you are gonna compromise on age or height, compromise on one of them, but not on both.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

You're walking around like a bum, and then you expect me to be like Kate Hudson. No, no, no, we're not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

These are the four predictors of divorce.